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Starter out?

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TommySki View Drop Down
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    Posted: June-16-2016 at 3:55pm
I have a 1992 Sport

Model: PLD-PR-R12PT
Serial: 330303

End of last year I noticed that occasionally the starter wouldn't engage when I turned the key, maybe one out of 5 times. Didn't really think much of it. This year I am just getting to putting the boat in the water and of course now it doesn't engage at all.

I suspect its the starter, the black relay on the back of the motor clicks and there is power to the starter itself and the battery is fresh and fully charged. A call to the local dealer told me they also suspected it was the starter.

Any other ideas?

Thanks for any and all suggestions/help/insults/etc.

Tom
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Hollywood View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hollywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 4:36pm
Instead of suspecting get out the VOM and check for 12V getting to the starter on key turn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 5:11pm
Tom,
The local dealer would love to sell you a starter!! $$$$$. Diagnosis over the phone?? BS!!!!As mentioned, get the VOM out and find out what's going on.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dreaming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 6:06pm
there is always 12v at the starter large wire/ terminal when the battery is hooked up,   Hollywood is referring to the small wire on the starter solenoid, which only gets power when the key is in the on position.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by Dreaming Dreaming wrote:

there is always 12v at the starter large wire/ terminal when the battery is hooked up,   Hollywood is referring to the small wire on the starter solenoid, which only gets power when the key is in the on position.


Depends on the style of starter he has whether there is always 12v there.

You're referring to the newer style which he may or may not have.

I figure Hollywood is referring to the older style
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TommySki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 6:43pm
Thanks all for the suggestions. I'll have to run get a volt meter. Mine's not at the lake.

I know there is power to the starter, not sure if its a full 12 or not. I'll do some more digging and see what I can find.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-16-2016 at 6:53pm
How about a picture of the starter and the solenoid/relay on the back of the engine ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TommySki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 12:21pm
Here are pics of the relay and starter. I'll have my volt meter at the lake later today to run some diagnostics.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 12:46pm
That's the new style like Dreaming was describing.

Should have 12v all the time at the big lug on the starter (sounds like you do.

Then you have the solenoid on the engine and the other solenoid right on top of the starter.

When the key is turned to START you should then have 12 v supplied from the engine mounted solenoid to the starter mounted solenoid thru the black/white (or whatever color it is) wire in your second picture.

If you get 12v there and it doesn't run it's either the starter or the solenoid mounted to it.

If you don't get 12v there with the key in START. then go back to the solenoid on the engine as the likely problem.

Hope this is understandable

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TommySki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 1:18pm
Makes perfect sense. I'll test it later today.

Is the engine mounted solenoid/relay interchangeable (ie something I could pickup at the local auto parts store) or does it have to be one for this specific engine?

Thanks,
Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 6:50pm
You'll get varied opinions on the automotive ones from people, but it will work

84 F-250 with a 351 W should get you the same style solenoid

Can't go wrong with a marine one though.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TRBenj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 8:45pm
How do the battery cables look? Any corrosion or looseness at the terminals? I'd be cleaning my connections and verifying they're tight before doing anything.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NCH20SKIER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-17-2016 at 9:06pm
This could be a Pete quote.......

Originally posted by Hollywood Hollywood wrote:

Instead of suspecting get out the VOM and check for 12V getting to the starter on key turn.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TommySki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2016 at 12:15am
OK, Volt meter testing confirms that its the starting relay and here is why I believe that. Very little to no corrosion anywhere on any connections.

1) There is constant 12V to the starter.
2) Never power to the starter solenoid lead when the starter does not engage.
3) Starter ALWAYS engages when I use my handy screw driver to direct jump the leads on the solenoid itself.

With this information I used the recommendation provided by KENO to purchase an 84 351W from the local auto parts dealer for $20. This looks identical to mine on the boat, even the mounting bracket is the same. I will install this one in the morning and assume that this will fix my problem.

If this unit does work is there a need to purchase a marine grade one or are these really the same?

Thanks for all the help!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2016 at 7:29am
The short answer would be that the marine solenoid and the auto solenoid may both be sealed and equally corrosion and explosion proof but............the marine one has been tested and certified.

They could be exactly the same except for the certification, then again they could be made with different metals etc.

Some older auto ones had a vent hole that you don't want on the marine version.

Like I said in a previous post you'll get different opinions but with the marine one you know what you are getting.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TommySki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2016 at 2:36pm
Good new is that fixed it, starts every time.

Bad news is after about an hour on the water its now not idling well at all. Runs fine at higher RPM and under load but is very rough at idle and up to about 2000 RPMs. Seems to be fuel or possibly carburetor related. Seems unlikely to me that the carb would all of a sudden get out of adjustment.

Although I've never looked I assume there is a water separator, that will be my first check. Second is that I put some questionable gas in from the shed that sat over the winter, perhaps some bad gas? Is there a way to drain the gas tank without siphoning it all back out?

Many thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DVskier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2016 at 3:45pm
Run a bottle of Seafoam through iT. Then replace fuel with non ethanol, see what happens.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TommySki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2016 at 8:25pm
Good news all around.

I took the boat out and ran it for about 10 minutes and the issue cleared itself up. I suspect I had some debris clogging a carb jet. Ran it for a couple of hours with no issues and even got a pass in for myself.

All I want for fathers day is a pass in the morning and one to finish the day, life is good.

Thanks all for your help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KENO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2016 at 9:24pm
Tommy, Tommy, Tommy

There's something you need to know about old gas.

You NEVER put it into your boat, You take it out of the boat and get rid or it in some sly and devious manner.

There 's a thread on here somewhere about what people do to get rid of it.

Myself I pour it into the neighbor kids old jeep when he ain't around, Only problem is if it runs like crap he comes to me to help him fix it but that's OK cause the boat runs good and his carburetor is really simple. That thing has run on some really really bad gas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8122pbrainard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June-18-2016 at 9:29pm
Regarding old gas as well as used paint thinners, I put them in my oil drain pan and burn them off.


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